As I type this there is a battle being fought on the pages of Facebook. It all started a few months back when some of the world’s best surf photographers were alerted to the fact that their images were being lifted from their personal pages without their knowledge and posted on a generic ‘surf’ page called World Wide Waves.
The page was using the photographer’s shots as a way of garnering likes (upwards of 300,000 for some, which equates to a lot of missed exposure for a photographer) from surf fans ignorant of the dodgy dealings who simply want to see great surf images. Many of the photographers contacted the page, some simply asked that their work be credited, others asking that their shots be removed. All were met with abusive comments and messages from the administrators and promptly blocked from the page.
(For those out there ignorant of copyright law, this is something they are well within their right to do, and the page was committing a clear breach of moral copyright.)
This really kindled the fire within the community, and the page was bombarded with messages and posts decrying them as thieves.
It was an intense assault, and fearing the loss of their followers the page relented, removed the offending shots and began crediting images.
It was only yesterday that the second battle of the war with these pages played out. This time the target was a page called In The Lineup.
Noticing again that many shots were again being used without permission, Tracks Photographer Nathan Smith and WA sharpshooter Russell Ord began a campaign to see theirs and their colleagues shots either removed or credited. They have even started their own page, Don’t Steal Our Work, which is a place for photographers to post links to sites suspected of violating the rights of others in the profession.
We contacted Nathan and Russ to get the latest on this ongoing feud between the Surf Photographers, Facebook and these generic ‘surf’ pages.
Tracks: How did you both become aware that your photos were being used without your permission?
NS: I had someone mention my name on Facebook in regards to a photo of mine that was being shared around, and as you know this shows up in your feed so you can see what’s going on. There are a lot of eyes out there and all of us full-time photographers are always looking out for each other. I emailed Russ Ord, as he has had some huge issues with it not long ago and we went from there.
RO: I have been made aware a number of ways, but mostly it’s from a fellow photographer mentioning my name in a comment under the photo in question. I also had a friend like a shot and it appeared in my news feed.
Not only are they using your shots without permission, but in many cases they’re actually removing the watermarks you put on the images to avoid this exact thing happening. Why not just take 5 seconds to credit the photographer rather than spend 10 minutes cloning out the watermark?
NS: Yeah, good question. This one page, In The Line Up, posted my wide angle Kirra shot from about 10 years ago and they deleted my watermark. They didn’t care one bit about mentioning my Photo Page or anything. I’m usually pretty cool if someone shares but a REQUIRED mention is only fair I say.
It was a purely selfish act on their part – claiming not only my work but a heap of my peers as well. I know there are a lot of pages that are pretty gnarly with stealing shots right now, but we are all banding together to take them down. Power in numbers!
RO: It’s hard to prove a watermark has been removed because there are so many photos floating around the web that were initially purchased by websites or used in personal portfolios etc. But I am sure a few have defiantly been cropped or cloned out. There must but some underlining sinister reason for it?
Do you believe these guys are actually trying to credit your work as their own? Or is it more that they are using your photos to attract followers on these pages?
RO: I think it’s a combination of both, I have caught out a few people posting my photos and answering questions as if it’s their own. They have some serious issues to figure out. Usually when you approach them they simply ban you from their page. It’s refreshing when the photogs band together and force the issue with them.
NS: I think it depends on the person behind the page. Some people just love photos and they go on crazy hunts for images to build a page as a hobby. But others like In the Line Up, Surf, Sex, Sea and World Wide Waves are just out to get huge followers so they can then sell advertising space on their pages.
Surf, Sex, Sea has 300k followers who are all fooled by them. It’s all illegal, and in saying that, I think Facebook should also be held accountable for allowing it to happen so easily. They charge top rate for advertising and they have protection policies for just about everything you could think of … but not stealing! It’s crazy!
What makes it even worse is that there’s no easy way to report it or contact someone. If you report a page Facebook just emails you saying they have reviewed the page and found nothing wrong with it.
What do you believe is the point of these Facebook pages?
NS: Another good question. I believe Facebook is good for many reasons. It’s a place for me to stay in touch with friends, track down surfers who are sometimes hard to contact and of course to share pieces of your life. I like Facebook and crew are always posting funny and cool shit.
But the guys who make these pages, who knows? It may be an ego thing. Or some weird obsession with building a page just to see how big it can get. Who really knows?
One thing is for sure though, there definitely needs to be a tighter system to control the sharing of photos. Why not implement a ‘share request’ notification, so you either allow people to share your photo or deny it? Or have a daisy chain like Tumblr does so you know where the photos come from and where they end up?
RO: In my opinion, with these latest pages in question, the owner is using a number of world-class photographers and images to increase his so-called customer base. Yes likes for likes sake are a complete waste of time, but once he has that pulling power it is directed to his own website which sells advertising. I have a lot of learning to do photography wise, but his images are completely shithouse, so indirectly our shots have been used as a form of advertising.
Have you researched what copyright infringements are being made?
RO: Over the years I have had some professional advice on infringements made by companies. I have also learnt to take responsibility for my own business practices to ensure that doesn’t happen again.
Receiving advice from fellow photographers such as the Regnards has also been invaluable. Those guys have certainly helped me a lot in dealing with issues that arise time to time.
NS: No I have not, but no matter what Facebook says, I believe my images are just that, MY IMAGES. If you took it, you own it. Simple. If that’s not the case, I’ll happily remove every single photo on Facebook or just shut it down altogether.
Have either of you talked to a lawyer about possible action?
NS: I have someone who is a lawyer whom I’m sure would be interested in all this. But it all depends on the severity of the offences. A class action is not out of the question though that’s for sure. If we could find some young upstart copyright lawyer who wants to make a name for themselves, and do it pro bono, it would be a huge help. Back when the Internet first started, I used to see my images popping up on websites and I’d invoice them and get paid for it, but now it’s just out of control and too hard.
RO: I have talked to a lawyer in the past about certain companies, but with the Facebook pages I have just tried to talk to the page directly and make them aware of their actions. Most are there for a good time and don’t realise what they’re doing. They are usually happy to change the way they go about it.
For others, it has taken a union of photographers getting on their ass for them to change. We really need to stick together on these issues and to have a lawyer onside for up and coming battles, because I am sure this wont be the last time.
How do these pages affect you and other professional photographers that are having their work stolen?
RO: It really doesn’t effect me directly, but a lot of these images I have sold to certain websites, and I don’t expect them to be stolen so they can be used for free to showcase some random persons page on Facebook. There’s a perfectly good share button they can hit anytime on my page with watermarked images.
NS: If someone is using my image to help them gain followers, which in turn allows them to sell ad space, that’s just not right or cool. I own 40k of camera gear that helps me create these images and it’s not just for these idiots to profit off. Shouldn’t I be rewarded for my hard work and effort?
A lot of the people who follow these pages don’t really know who any of us photographers are. Only the odd person who is really into surf imagery will know different photographers shots. That’s how I was alerted to all of this in the first place.
There is also the chance we could lose print sales from companies outside the surf industry, or miss someone who wants a huge print on their wall.
For me it’s also about people doing the right thing. I guess I’ve been a bit soft on the people stealing my shots but not now, I’m out for them hard. I’m going to be just as ruthless towards them as they have been toward us. Enough is enough.
The person believed to be responsible for operating some of these pages is a “photographer” himself. How in good conscience could he do it?
NS: I have no idea. Some people are just messed up and do the strangest things. We are told one of these guys lives in Hawaii. Hello! are you serious? There are more photo opportunities there than just about anywhere in the world, so I am really stumped as to why someone would take our photos.
In the Line Up have now removed all stolen content in a bid to kind of stop the flood of abusive comments and make amends, but its all a day late a dollar short I say. We do have a bunch of screen grabs showing all the stolen content.
Funnily enough though, they still haven’t apologised to anyone for taking their photos. They have since posted a photo of mine with a credit, but I asked them politely to remove it. If they just put a credit on the shots from the start this probably would of went on unnoticed for a while longer.
We are still looking into Surf, Sex, Sea and who is operating it. We will know soon enough though. We have had some great support.
RO: He does it because his own photography is very average. Good photography sells advertising the world over. Yes I have a long way to go, but without our images no one would even look at his page or site.
But it’s not only the people behind the pages to blame. Surely Facebook must take some responsibility in enforcing copyright violations on their own site?
RO: I have hit that Facebook “intellectual property” button hundreds of times. I’ve sent through complaints with screen grabs. They are a complete waste of time so far in my experience. We need that lawyer with a burning desire to get shit done. Finding that person is going to be difficult because I couldn’t even imagine the money Facebook has to tie this shit up for the next thousand years. But step-by-step.
NS: Facebook do nothing at all. It all seems to go into the too hard basket. They need to sort this out soon. Look at Myspace, we all thought that would be around forever but it went to shit real quick.
It’s actually easier to find out who the person is behind the pages and talk to them. They are really rattled when we contact them as they know we are onto them, they cant hide behind a very well protected page.
Have either of you had any correspondence from Facebook on the matter, if so, what?
NS: None. Just computer generated responses, which are a joke. There is so much bullshit on Facebook that shouldn’t be there. It’s almost out of control. I actually think its days are numbered. People are tired of the stealing. It’s not just surf shots either, it’s all aspects of photography, music, weddings, you name it.
RO: Very little. Most times they say they have done nothing wrong. By taking action ourselves we have had pages with 300k followers completely change the way they look.
Russell you went through the same thing a few months back, is it a case of deja vu for you? How do you stop it when you successfully lobby to have one page closed and another opens?
RO: I have been through it a number of times but as one person I don’t have that much pull. When we band together we can get shit done very, very quickly. Most times a simple message about crediting others work changes the way they think. However, these latest pages have had plenty of chances and it’s only now that we have combined we’re starting to get answers.
The most recent offenders have since taken down your shots after a wide array of photographers let fly with a barrage of posts on the page. Will you stop here or will the crusade continue?
NS: The Crusade will continue until they learn to do the right thing.
Surf, Sex, Sea, In the Line Up and World Wide Waves all need to sort their shit out and simply do the right thing. A simple credit and link to that Photographers page is all it takes. Their arrogance and stupidity has created this situation.
Surf Photographers provide a lot of people some great eye candy, and it’s shame some people abuse this.
I saying that I also want to say I’m really stoked and appreciative on the amount of support myself and Russ, along with all our peers, have received from crew in helping bring this issue to light. There is along way to go and hopefully we can get some mainstream media form this.
Did I mention that a US Photographer is suing Buzzfeed, an online image site, for $3.6 Million for using an image without his permission? Looks like he is going to retire from only 1 image being stolen.
RO: I like to give people half a chance (some would disagree), and let them change their own ways.
I also like to help out when a fellow photog is not having the right thing done by them.
Some days I think ‘why the fuck to I bother’, but it’s not in my personal make up so I am running with this one, along with Nate, Timo, Mckenna, Morris and co. Shit that was a lot of name drops haha! So many talented humans have expressed their opinions openly about these sites.
